Legislature(1995 - 1996)

02/12/1996 03:36 PM Senate RES

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
 SRES 2/12/96                                                                  
                                                                               
        SB 262 MANAGEMENT OF FISH/GAME POPULATION & AREA                      
                                                                              
  CHAIRMAN LEMAN  called the Senate Resources Committee meeting to             
 order at 3:36 p.m. and announced  SB 262  to be up for consideration.         
                                                                               
 SENATOR MILLER, sponsor of SB 262, said the intent of the bill is             
 basically for any acre that comes out of hunting for no good                  
 biological reason at the next Board meeting that five acres of land           
 not already open to hunting replace it.                                       
                                                                               
 Now, if there are good biological reasons for shutting land down,             
 additional lands do not have to be put back into hunting.                     
                                                                               
 MR. LYNN LEVENGOOD, Fairbanks attorney representing Alaska Wildlife           
 Conservation Association, said that Alaska consumptive users have             
 lost nearly the size of the state of Wyoming in one form or                   
 another.  The most recent and alarming trend has happened in 1995             
 when the Board of Game restricted land for harvest without any                
 biological reason.  The most notable was restricting over 200                 
 square miles on the Alaska Peninsula from bear hunting.  Recently             
 the Board of Game closed 90 square miles in the Mat-Su Valley to              
 hunting by rifles without biological reasons.                                 
                                                                               
 Number 134                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR thanked Mr. Levengood for the work he had done on              
 this legislation.                                                             
                                                                               
 MR. WAYNE REGELIN, Director, Division of Wildlife Conservation,               
 said that SB 262 would modify several existing statutes related to            
 hunting and fishing in Alaska.  The first section would mandate               
 that game populations be managed solely for maximum sustained yield           
 for human harvest and that defines consumptive use as the highest             
 and best use of game.  It would mandate that if the Board of Game             
 closes an area or restricts hunting in an area in any way, it must            
 open a similar area at least five times larger than that area which           
 is closed.  This provision has some major implications for the                
 State subsistence law.  If areas are moved into a Tier II or a Tier           
 I hunt by the Board of Game to protect subsistence uses, other                
 areas would be required to be opened before such restriction could            
 be continued.  In most cases such areas wouldn't be available, so             
 the restrictions would probably have to go away or couldn't occur             
 in the first place.                                                           
                                                                               
 The Board of Game would have serious difficulty in closing any                
 season in any area under the provisions in section 1 of this bill.            
 Each temporary closure due to a biological emergency would be                 
 subject to litigation as provided for by paragraphs (c) and (d) in            
 this section.  It doesn't specify they can be closed for biological           
 reasons, it just says flat that you can't.                                    
                                                                               
 Section 2 of SB 262 would outlaw restrictions on public access to             
 any refuge, sanctuary, or special management area, and would                  
 provide for civil actions against public officials who allow                  
 restrictions to occur.  It would also restrict the use of revenue             
 from federal aid and licenses to certain programs.                            
                                                                               
 Sections 3 - 7 would modify statutes to guarantee access to                   
 refuges, sanctuaries, and critical habitat areas, for sport                   
 fishing, hunting, and trapping consistent with the maximum                    
 sustained yield.  The Department has real concerns with this for a            
 number of reasons.  It would be impossible for them to manage any             
 of Alaska's wildlife populations consistent with the definition of            
 harvestable surplus, high levels of human harvest, and maximum                
 sustained yield as provided in section 1.                                     
                                                                               
 The most intensively harvested wildlife populations in the world              
 can't meet these requirements.  The three definitions all tie                 
 together and would require reducing predators to extremely low                
 levels so that we could have more human harvest.  There is no doubt           
 if we reduce predators we could have human harvest, but in their              
 judgment they would never be able to supply one third or more of              
 the harvestable surplus as defined in this bill even where there's            
 no predation.                                                                 
                                                                               
 MR. REGELIN said even in Sweden they can't reach that level.  They            
 harvest about 30 percent of their moose each year.  They have no              
 predators and almost no winter loss, but 50 percent of the harvest            
 they take is of calves that are four months old.  Twenty-five                 
 percent is cows.  He didn't know if we wanted to do that in Alaska,           
 but he thought we couldn't achieve the same situation in the type             
 of eco-system that we have.                                                   
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asked for the number of moose harvested in Sweden.             
 MR. REGELIN replied that they are taking over 100,000 moose per               
 year in Sweden.                                                               
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asked why Sweden, a tiny country, can harvest                  
 100,000 moose every year.  MR. REGELIN said that Sweden has about             
 400,000 moose and they are about one fifth the size of Alaska.                
 Their forest management practices have allowed moose populations to           
 increase to very high levels.  They have intensive forestry on 160            
 acre blocks which they manage for moose.  The big difference is               
 that they don't have winters that kill animals and they don't have            
 very many predators - one pack of wolves in northern Sweden and               
 very few bears. The tree species they manage for is lodge pole pine           
 which moose can eat.  Here moose can't eat spruce.  So weather and            
 food resource are the real differences.                                       
                                                                               
 Number 240                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. REGELIN said paragraph 3 (b) is very vague.  Most wildlife                
 populations in Alaska are subject to federal subsistence management           
 that is not recognized by State law.  A strict interpretation of              
 this paragraph would prohibit expenditure of fish and game funds or           
 federal aid funds for management of all of these populations.                 
 Further, it would disallow intensive management in an area like the           
 Nelchina Basin where the Nelchina caribou herd is subject to rural            
 preference under the federal law.  He didn't feel that this law               
 would be workable.                                                            
                                                                               
 MR. REGELIN emphasized that the word has been spread that the                 
 harvest of wildlife in Alaska is way down.  That's just not true if           
 you look at the record.  For instance, 20 years ago 3,000 moose               
 were harvested in Alaska; last year 7,300 were harvested.  We used            
 to harvest about 5,000 caribou; last year we harvested over 30,000.           
 Harvest statistics for Fairbanks are higher today than 20 years               
 ago, nearly double.                                                           
                                                                               
 He said a bill like this would do a lot of damage to Alaska in the            
 long run.  Twenty years ago very few people were interested in                
 wildlife management, basically just hunters.  Today lots of people            
 are interested in how we manage wildlife, are demanding services,             
 and want a place at the table when decisions are made.  It is                 
 happening throughout the nation.  Hunters are not the only ones who           
 own the wildlife.  It belongs to all the people of Alaska and we              
 have to be good stewards of this resource.  Saying the only and               
 best use of wildlife is human consumptive use in the long term will           
 be really damaging to hunters, because he didn't think we could               
 hold that position.                                                           
                                                                               
 MR. REGELIN said over 95 percent of their budget is directly                  
 related to maintaining and enhancing hunting opportunity.  We also            
 have to provide benefits to the other people who like to view                 
 wildlife.  If those people are shut out of the equation, they won't           
 stand for it.  And they are the majority.                                     
                                                                               
 Number 300                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR said the only portion left of the Department of Fish           
 and Game budget that comes out of the general fund is the                     
 commercial fisheries budget.  The rest are federal pass-through               
 monies and State monies from license fees paid for by hunters, from           
 taxes paid by people who purchase guns, fishing poles, lures, etc.            
 He asked what amount of funding they were receiving from these                
 "other groups of people who want to sit at the table."                        
                                                                               
 MR. REGELIN replied that right now we are not receiving anything              
 from them.  They are working hard on getting some federal                     
 legislation with matching funds from the State so that non-                   
 consumptive users can pay their own way.  He said there is no doubt           
 that hunters have been paying their own way for years.  Because of            
 the dollars they have contributed there is very good wildlife                 
 management.  They spend $620,000 of the ADF&G budget on all of the            
 non-consumptive use programs, including wildlife education (Project           
 Wild), work on endangered species, and about $350,000 on wildlife             
 viewing programs.                                                             
                                                                               
 He said there is no doubt that the primary use of the fish and game           
 fund and license fees has to primarily benefit hunting and fishing,           
 and trapping.  The Department does that.  He emphasized that the              
 Department uses four and a half percent of the budget to have a               
 balanced program, so that when non-hunters see a controversial                
 program, they don't turn against us.  With legislation like this he           
 was afraid non-hunters, about 60 percent of Alaska, would turn into           
 anti-hunters.                                                                 
                                                                               
 Number 331                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asked how many moose the people in Sweden harvested            
 twenty years ago.  He asked if they had significantly enhanced                
 availability of moose to hunt, wouldn't they be enhancing the                 
 numbers of moose to view as well?  He asked what recommendations he           
 could make to avoid conflicts with subsistence users who should be            
 the primary benefiters of this legislation.                                   
                                                                               
 MR. REGELIN replied that the situation in Sweden is a completely              
 different eco-system which Alaska will never match.  In Alaska                
 where they were able to manage most intensively there were almost             
 four moose per square mile, although that level cannot be held for            
 very long.  Prescribed fires are difficult because State, federal,            
 and private lands are all together in most places and mechanical              
 manipulation is very costly.                                                  
                                                                               
 Predation management in Alaska, wolf control, has been very                   
 controversial for years.  It's not going to change; it's an issue             
 that affects not just game management and the Division of Wildlife            
 Conservation; it affects the entire State of Alaska.  Because of              
 this, decisions on whether or not to implement predator management            
 programs have been made by the Governor.  The last four governors             
 have been involved in those decisions.  The Department tries to               
 have the information ready to follow the law that says what                   
 information has to be collected, so the Board can make those                  
 decisions.  These decisions are going to be made in the political             
 branch, not the Division of Wildlife.                                         
                                                                               
 Number 388                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asked what amount of money his department has                  
 requested for predator control.  MR. REGELIN replied that they have           
 asked for no funding.  They are waiting for a review by the                   
 National Academy of Sciences and then the Governor will make a                
 decision on whether or not to proceed.                                        
                                                                               
 SENATOR HOFFMAN commented regarding page 3, section 3 (b) we would            
 be inviting the federal government to come in and manage the                  
 resources the State would be prohibited from managing and the                 
 people of Alaska want to go in the other direction.                           
                                                                               
 MR. REGELIN agreed that the way the bill is structured it would               
 prohibit the Department from spending any money in an area where              
 the federal government has implemented its system of management.              
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR questioned where the funding for his department                
 comes from.  MR. REGELIN explained that the only sources of funding           
 are from the fish and game fund and license fees.  Every one needs            
 to have a State hunting license, whether they are hunting on State,           
 private, or federal land.                                                     
                                                                               
 Number 428                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR HOFFMAN asked which areas of the State and specific                   
 populations were not managed for consumptive uses.  MR. REGELIN               
 replied that Round Island is now open to hunting through a special            
 agreement with the local Native residents of that area and in the             
 10 years he has worked for the Board of Game, two areas have been             
 closed to hunting.  One is Pack Creek and the other is the McNeil             
 River Refuge.  In the past they had harvested up to three bears per           
 year at McNeil River and there is no problem with the population of           
 bears in that area.  The Board of Game heard that issue and as a              
 Department they made an unprecedented request to the Board to close           
 an area when there was no biological need.  The reason is simply              
 because this area had become an issue on the international and                
 national stage.  Hunting at McNeil was on TV night after night                
 across the nation with Dan Rather making it look like people were             
 harvesting bears at McNeil Falls while people were watching them.             
 This was totally untrue, but that was the perception.  It was                 
 turning non-hunters across the nation into anti-hunters.  For three           
 bears a year it was a tremendous way for anti-hunting groups to               
 raise money.  When he sees something that detrimental to the image            
 of hunters, he felt it was a fight we couldn't win.  He said he               
 hates to see areas closed to hunting and his Department fights hard           
 to enhance hunting opportunity.                                               
                                                                               
 Number 468                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR LINCOLN stated she would ask just two of her questions in             
 deference to the many people that wanted to testify on this issue.            
 She asked MARY GORE, Senator Miller's Legislative Aide, if SB 262             
 is a replacement for a subsistence bill.  MS. GORE said Senator               
 Miller would have to answer that question.                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR LINCOLN asked Mr. Regelin if he read this bill as a                   
 subsistence bill or if it has an affect on subsistence or rural               
 preference.                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. REGELIN answered that he didn't think this bill had anything to           
 do with rural preference or the subsistence issue, but it does                
 affect it because of the way the law is structured.  It would                 
 affect how they would continue to spend money on populations that             
 are only used for subsistence purposes.                                       
                                                                               
 Number 518                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR noted that that concern is handled on page 3,                  
 paragraph 3 where it says specifically that if they are going to              
 use revenue that has been generated from taxes, license fees, and             
 other fees paid by sportsmen, or funds received from federal aid in           
 sport fish in wildlife restoration programs, then they shouldn't              
 use it in an area where no one can hunt or fish.  So those                    
 subsistence areas where the general public can't hunt should have             
 some other funding source.                                                    
                                                                               
 BILL HAGAR, Fairbanks resident, said the goals of the Department of           
 Wildlife Conservation have been shifted from biological sciences to           
 behavioral sciences or social engineering.  This bill provides the            
 guidance the Department needs to manage game according to the                 
 constitution.                                                                 
                                                                               
 MICK MANNS, Bettles resident, supported SB 262, because it would              
 get us back towards our State Constitution.  He said the sheep and            
 moose populations are being wiped out and we've got to get things             
 back to where there is a sustained yield.  Without that nothing in            
 the Department of Fish and Game would make much sense.                        
                                                                               
 Number 570                                                                    
                                                                               
 PETE SHEPHERD supported SB 262 because it sends a very pointed                
 message to ADF&G, the Board of Game, and other State agencies which           
 are philosophically and not biologically driven.  Human consumptive           
 use is a priority use of fish and game according to the                       
 Constitutional mandate.  He credited the senators for recognizing             
 the need for civil recourse for unjustified bureaucratic stonewalls           
 and philosophical differences.  The bill addresses the problems               
 inherent in State agencies which appear to be at odds with                    
 consumptive use.                                                              
                                                                               
 TAPE 96-13, SIDE B                                                            
                                                                               
 TOM SCARBOROUGH, Fairbanks resident, said SB 262 is a lands bill.             
 Areas hunters can use are being restricted more and more and he               
 thought this legislation is absolutely necessary.                             
                                                                               
 MIKE TINKER, said SB 262 sets goals and objectives and gives                  
 direction to the Department to set policy so that they don't have             
 to manage for such a wide spectrum of interests.  Every agency                
 needs clear goals, he said.  Because of the complexities of                   
 managing wildlife let's get the biologists back to using biology,             
 he said.  It is extremely important to have the definitions                   
 included in this bill.                                                        
                                                                               
 Number 561                                                                    
                                                                               
 GEORGE YASKA, Tanana Chiefs Conference, said they like the use of             
 the term maximum sustained yield.  They do support certain forms of           
 predator control.  He said that the legislature has rarely funded             
 maximum sustained yield programs beyond the Fairbanks area.  He               
 wanted due consideration given to areas outside of areas generally            
 considered as non-subsistence areas.  They are concerned that                 
 section 15.20.75 as amended would provide an unhealthy level of               
 competition for subsistence resources within the moose management             
 areas. He cautioned the legislature about guarantees for sports               
 hunting within official management areas that are under Tier II               
 restrictions.  Guaranteed access under this amendment for sports              
 hunters may not be unhealthy for sports hunters, but would be                 
 decidedly unhealthy for rural subsistence hunters that are                    
 generally not able to compete with the quota of hunters that would            
 be found under the proposed scenario.                                         
                                                                               
 Number 542                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. LEVENGOOD reported that this bill is in no way a subsistence              
 bill.  It would prevent less land from being taken out of                     
 consumptive uses which would benefit all uses and it would provide            
 a guaranteed access, not limited to sport hunters.  In areas where            
 Tier II preferences are given this bill would have absolutely no              
 effect.                                                                       
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR said he thought that predator control was one of the           
 issues driving this legislation and there was a proposed $0 budget            
 for predator control this year.                                               
                                                                               
 SENATOR LEMAN noted that predator control could be very effective             
 if done by people outside of the Department in rural Alaska.                  
                                                                               
 Number 504                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR MILLER reiterated that this is not a subsistence bill and             
 it wouldn't negatively impact subsistence.  He said he would work             
 with the Department on their concerns.                                        
                                                                               
 SENATOR HOFFMAN commented that they say it wouldn't impact                    
 subsistence, but according to Senator Taylor's interpretation of              
 page 3, section 3 that no money could be utilized to manage in                
 areas in conflict with our State Constitution.  That's exactly in             
 the areas of subsistence.  The resources could not be managed for             
 subsistence hunts which would impact subsistence.                             
                                                                               
 SENATOR MILLER said that other general funds cover the subsistence            
 budget.                                                                       
                                                                               
 SENATOR LEMAN said they would hold the bill for further work.                 

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